Making AI literacy engaging with Marty Creel

Aaron Feuer:

Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Leading and Learning with AI podcast. This is going to be a great one. I'm here with someone I've been really looking forward to speaking with, Marty Creel from Code.org He's a former educator, fourth grade up through high school social studies, who's now leading a major effort called the Hour of AI. If you haven't seen it yet, check it out@hourofai.org it's built to help students, teachers and communities explore AI in a hands on, engaging way. And I would say on the panorama side, we're proud to be a partner in this work. We've created an activity just for educators focused on helping them explore AI literacy in their own context. So if you're wondering where to start, that's a great first step and I'll just plug check out a link to that in the show notes for today's episode. Most importantly, Marty, thank you for joining us today.

Aaron Feuer:

You started this work and you started in the classroom, and that's where this all begins. And I'd love to begin talking about how your experience in the classroom shape how you think about AI literacy for teachers and students today.

Marty Creel:

Sure. And first of all, thanks for having me here. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Starting as a social studies teacher and, you know, history and geography, my favorite subject, but not every student's favorite subject. And what I really think that connection from then to now is that it's all about building knowledge. Students who develop really good knowledge kind of schema end up being students who can better use things like AI tools. And so one of the things I really love to do was get students excited about stuff that they thought they wouldn't get excited about, like Bessemer's process of hardening steel or the Fed.

Marty Creel:

How does the Fed work? You know, these are things that are helpful to know. And the more you know, the better you understand the world. And then the other side in teaching is I always thought it was unforgivable to be boring in the classroom and so always made sure it was fun, engaging, and students were coming along for a ride. I think coming into the AI world today, the more students can kind of just grasp the tools and the more they know about how they work, the better they're going to be set to use them efficiently and ethically.

Aaron Feuer:

Well, you're, you're making me wish I was one of your social studies students hearing about those classroom lessons. I'm so curious. Marty, you said something interesting here, which is that I've heard a lot of Folks say that in the age of AI, knowledge matters less because we can look things up, we can go to AI. You've just said quite the opposite, that actually knowledge matters more in this age. I agree with you, by the way, but can you share more about that and how you see that tension?

Marty Creel:

Sure. I mean, I think there was a big misunderstanding back in the late 90s when you could begin to search for anything and when Google became preeminent, you could Google something. There were people like, well, why you need to know stuff if you can Google it? Well, I mean, the obvious answer is like, well, how do you know what to Google? And then how do you know if what you're reading is legitimate? And so the more you know, the more you can understand where information is coming from and the better questions you ask. Let's just stick back in Google. The better questions you can ask, and the better you phrase them, the more accurate the responses you get. Same thing works in the age of AI. If you understand how these machines are designed and built, you will understand what to look for in their mistakes. And so I think that's a basic idea, that building knowledge is going to give you more power to understand how the world is working now.

Marty Creel:

So I actually think it's the opposite of what most people say. It sounds like you and I are in agreement on that.

Aaron Feuer:

I strongly agree, but I've never heard it articulated quite as well as you did just now. And so I think I hear often folks thinking about where AI literacy should live in schools. And I hear folks when I'm thinking about put it in a homeroom, put it in a computer lab class. And what I appreciate is I hear you talking about AI as something that is embedded in other subjects. And I'm interested from your perspective, how do you see the role of AI literacy living within existing courses, like in a math class, an English class, a social studies class?

Marty Creel:

Well, I mean, kind of connecting back to the knowledge question. You know, knowledge schema are different in every subject area. There's different sets of knowledge and different ways that people think about how knowledge is built. And so in order to really use AI effectively in say, mathematics, you need to understand what knowledge it is you're trying to build and then find the right tools to work on it. Like a traditional LLM is not great to use for mathematics. It's built around words, not numbers. So don't be surprised when you get a lot of mistakes out of that. So you and I probably know that kind of viscerally, but students may not put that Together and maybe trying to use an LLM for something in mathematics that's pretty basic.

Marty Creel:

And then I just think as the tools develop, they're becoming more and more content specific. And so they are built around what it is we want students to learn and how we want them to learn.

Aaron Feuer:

That makes sense. So I'm interested, you know, you've now seen the hour of AI begin to play out in classrooms across the country. And I'd love to hear what's some of the feedback that you're hearing from teachers who have tried it?

Marty Creel:

Well, the first feedback we're hearing is we didn't realize there were so many kind of good activities going on, that there's a lot of opportunities, because I think a lot of people have been in place of where can I find something practical and easy to use? And they were finding kind of a lot of, you know, opinion pieces or blogs, but they weren't finding teacher activities. And so when we put all these together in one spot, you know, over 130 activities, it's really kind of made people see, oh, there are a lot of ways I can teach AI literacy in different subject areas or as Panorama has done with my faculty and staff. So I see ways that I can pick it up and use it quickly.

Aaron Feuer:

Were there any classroom moments that come to mind that capture like, what these moments of magic look like in the classroom?

Marty Creel:

Well, I have to say one of my favorite activities is Minecraft. If you know the game, you know, the first night that you go in to Minecraft when you first play the game is you got to bring together your materials so you can build a house so you can be protected from the elements. And what they've done is they've introduced an AI agent, helps you at the beginning. And that agent, if you don't train it correctly, actually makes your life much more difficult. And so there's that great feeling of, you know, in a game based scenario, what it's like to have to suddenly play a game and realize that AI is not helpful if you don't use it correctly. And so having seen a number of kind of middle school age kids try Minecraft and try this new one, to see them go, I thought this was going to make my life easier and then get frustrated that the AI agent, you know, they basically got shut down immediately. And then they realized, oh, I need to train this thing. So to see the light bulb

go on in a gamified manner and the student may or may not actually realize they're learning.

Marty Creel:

AI literacy is just a great scene for me, what would you know?

Aaron Feuer:

We've got a lot of school and district sort of system leaders joining us on this podcast. And what plugs would you make around what AI literacy at its best should look like and also what you don't think AI literacy should look like in.

Marty Creel:

Schools at its best, it should be closely embedded with the content areas and aligned with the goals of learning in those content areas. At its worst, it would be an add on. And you know, as we all know, teachers already are way overloaded with the work they have to do. And so an add on will be something that they're probably going to selectively ignore. And so we don't want that outcome. We want to help teachers where they are. And so I think from a school district's perspective, when they're thinking about AI literacy, it's probably best to think about it first and foremost as integrated. And then in certain content areas, like computer science education, you go with a much deeper strand.

Marty Creel:

And so that's Another thing that Code.org has created is not just the hour of AI, but we also have our AI fundamentals course, which teaches a much deeper understanding of AI usage and the thinking behind it. Really demystifying AI in a much greater detail for those students who want to go into the more technical computer science education.

Aaron Feuer:

That's terrific. And that reminds me that when something new comes, we love to like make new things add on. So just add more, add more, add more. And that is not going to be the most effective implementation path, but also isn't how kids are going to understand AI best. How about, we've talked about students, what about teachers, district leaders? What does AI literacy mean for school system leaders?

Marty Creel:

We really think about it. And Aaron, really thank you for that question because that's pulling back to that much higher level is really important. System leaders, we really started in code with an organization we call Teach AI which created policy and school toolkits. Because one of the first things you're dealing with is a community that may be living in a little bit of a fear based approach to AI. And so one of the first things we really did was pull back to that policy and kind of community information level. And so that's one of the first things we ended up doing. Second is really helping the educators along. Do they have the professional learning, the understanding of AI? Do they understand how it's going to affect their roles? Do they see how the outcomes of education may be changing as students face a much more challenging work environment? Are they thinking of those things? Those are things We've built into our educators and industry leaders conversations and then really getting down to the details.

Marty Creel:

What do we really need to change in curriculum? What do we need to think about doing differently? As I mentioned, we're talking about integration. We're not talking about whole scale change. We're talking about how can I fit in AI literacy into my ELA course or into seventh grade social studies or arts, you know, all those types of areas where the world is changing very rapidly.

Aaron Feuer:

What do you think looks different when leaders deeply understand the AI tools themselves?

Marty Creel:

Well, I think the leaders who experiment with AI tools, first of all, are modeling great learning themselves. And I think they are modeling a curiosity that's really important in this age. But I think when they understand the tools, they're able to set better policy and direction and recommendations. And ultimately a lot of this is going to come down at some point to procurement. And are you purchasing tools that you feel like that have considered AI literacy? Are they taking an ethical approach to the use of AI? And I think that's one of the hardest decisions that school leaders face. And so one of the things we really think that AI literacy helps school district leaders is think about those important, you know, expensive decisions.

Aaron Feuer:

I think that's spot on. I mean, even inside of our own organization, it's been so impactful to use AI personally. Show folks how we use AI and it feels like a powerful lead from the front moment for leaders to really understand. I want to jump back to students where we started this conversation. What do you see as changing when young people learn how AI works and how to use it responsibly?

Marty Creel:

Well, you know, right now we have a lot of evidence that the generation in front of us is accepting a lot of the responses that come out of let's just use large language models, and they're accepting them as if they are factual and accurate. And as we know, these machines are prone to error. A lot of people call them hallucinations and they are prone to bias. And so if students are kind of just accepting these results, they're not really considering A, how the machines were built or B, the negative outcomes that accepting those types of results can have. Now, we also know that the teenagers are using a lot of the kind of chatbots as social, emotional support. And it's the same kind of question there. Are you aware of how these machines work and do you understand that they might be filled with bias? And how do you know that they're giving you good information back? So those kind of just general awareness we think is really important for students in that area.

Aaron Feuer:

And then for students, you had something at the start, you were kind of with a smile talking about that school can be boring. And I'm interested in, you know, where you see the opportunities exist for AI to address that and make school more engaging.

Marty Creel:

Wow. There's just. There's just so many ways now. And I think that's what we try to do with hour of AI was curate ones that are really educationally appropriate and fun. So I think AI quickly has shown that you can create more engaging student materials and materials that are leveled correctly for a learner and materials that are, you know, kind of ready for all types of learning challenges for students. Those kind of like three access points will help. I believe many school districts realize the UDL frameworks they have in place because already you have these tools that can do so much. And then I think in the engagement side, building a more gamified approach to education is really helpful for students.

Marty Creel:

They begin to see what they're learning kind of immediately is telling them so they are getting feedback instantly in a way that they may not be aware is feedback. So I think we've already seen a number of game approaches to education that are very engaging and will help with kind of fundamental skills and knowledge that all school districts are tasked to help students learn.

Aaron Feuer:

If you were playing it forward five years and like, we got this right, we made education better. AI was a force for good in education. We can all imagine the horror alternatives to that. But we were successful. We made AI a positive force for students. What does that look like in five years?

Marty Creel:

Well, in five years, it looks like teachers who are not carrying such an enormous kind of administrative paperwork load. I would hope that that's something that we're all looking towards, that they have tools they can rely on to give them more time to work with students. And we know what teachers are really good at is making those personal connections to help children learn. I'm not of the opinion of. You hear some people speak like, oh, the chatbot's going to become the teachers like. To me, that would be some kind of dystopia. I am hopeful if I look forward five years, that the adults in the building who make those connections with students have more time to do what they do best, which is kind of help students develop a love of learning and help them build the knowledge and the skills they need to be successful. I would add to that making sure that's accessible for all students.

Marty Creel:

It's not something that's just for a subgroup of select students.

Aaron Feuer:

I appreciate that. And I appreciate that because I think it's easy. We need to spend a ton of time talking about the risks, but I always feel like the only way we create a positive future is to actually describe what are we working towards.

Marty Creel:

You're so right.

Aaron Feuer:

I think that's very important.

Marty Creel:

Right.

Aaron Feuer:

We gotta talk about what we're working to avoid, but also what we're working towards. And I really appreciate how leaders like you are steering us in a direction I think we need to steer ourselves towards. You know, you described a version of education that's actually more human as a result of AI, and that gets me really excited. I'd love to talk about the Hour of AI for a moment. It's such a terrific program. Can you just briefly share what the Hour of AI is and maybe also for our listeners, where they should go if they want to try it or host it?

Marty Creel:

Oh, for sure. Let me just say one more thing about your last comment about kind of a human future of AI and education. Early in our process of developing our AI literacy framework, we talked to a number of researchers. And one of my favorites was Dylan William, a researcher on kind of formative assessment, the guru of formative assessment. And we asked him, you know, what is your kind of take on AI's impact on education? And his most common of hopeful response was that it puts the teacher more in the role of the kind of Plato, the approach to teaching of Plato, which is imparter of wisdom and value. And so I am hopeful of that as well, that if we do it right, we see more of that. But let me go back to the reality of our. When you were talking about that, I couldn't help but think of that, that comment from Dylan White.

Marty Creel:

So Hour of AI, where can you access it? I think that was the question. And how or why?

Aaron Feuer:

Yeah, maybe just briefly, just describe what it is for folks who aren't familiar and how they should access it.

Marty Creel:

Sure. Hour of AI originally started about 13 years ago as our code Hour of Code. And it was the idea created by code.org that we would get students to understand that coding is something that is for everyone. It had previously been seen before Hour of Code as something that was only a select group of students could do, only certain, you know, very knowledgeable technical students could do. We wanted to blow that up, and we did. We wanted to make sure that coding was a skill that you could understand, that anybody could build. And so that was the premise behind the Hour of Code. And everything we have seen has kind of proven that out to be true.

Marty Creel:

We want the same to be true of Hour of AI. We want students and teachers to see this is not some great mystical beast that only the, you know, people at the top of the mountain of knowledge understand. This is very accessible knowledge and it's something that is going to be foundational for the future. And so with Hour of AI, we've curated a number of activities that really show how easily you can begin to demystify AI in just an hour. And of course, we have registration for thousands of people all over the world to join an hour of AI event. Traditionally, this happens the first week of December, well, I guess the second week, December 8th through the 12th CS education week here in the United States. But it's really taken on a global perspective. And so some folks do it that week, but some others do it in the rest of the year.

Marty Creel:

So it's really not date specific as it used to be, but it's something that we find when schools take the time to really simplify AI and show that it is accessible to almost anyone, it starts a much larger conversation. It's the beginning of a conversation. It's not something that in an hour you solve all the problems of the world.

Aaron Feuer:

But it's a great way to begin the conversation. And Marty, I just want to say, I just want to say thank you, Marty. This has been terrific. A lot of thought provoking ideas here and vision. I will just say what you and your team are building, clearly making this work real and accessible. In a moment where folks really need a new vision that this can be for every student, I find this compelling and sort of exactly what our students need. So I just want to say thank you, Marty, for being with us. I want to say for everyone tuning in, please do go explore hourofai.org, and you'll see a link in the show notes here.

Aaron Feuer:

But this has been terrific. Marty, thank you for being with us today.

Marty Creel:

Wow. Really appreciate it, Aaron. Thank you.

Aaron Feuer:

It's been a treat. We'll catch you all next time on the Leading and Learning with AI podcast. Thank you, Marty. And thank you all.